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Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:18 AM

Alan Grayson "We Are NOT The World's Policemen! Nor The World's Judge Jury And Executioner!"

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Reply Alan Grayson "We Are NOT The World's Policemen! Nor The World's Judge Jury And Executioner!" (Original post)
Segami Sep 2013 OP
msongs Sep 2013 #1
malaise Sep 2013 #9
truebluegreen Sep 2013 #42
indepat Sep 2013 #48
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #45
malaise Sep 2013 #46
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #47
malaise Sep 2013 #49
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #50
MindMover Sep 2013 #53
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #54
MindMover Sep 2013 #56
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #58
MindMover Sep 2013 #59
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #61
MindMover Sep 2013 #68
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #69
MindMover Sep 2013 #70
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #72
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #55
Turbineguy Sep 2013 #2
Scuba Sep 2013 #17
B Calm Sep 2013 #3
newfie11 Sep 2013 #4
Downwinder Sep 2013 #5
Coyotl Sep 2013 #21
HardTimes99 Sep 2013 #30
Coyotl Sep 2013 #33
HardTimes99 Sep 2013 #34
dballance Sep 2013 #6
Mr_Teg Sep 2013 #10
dballance Sep 2013 #7
HardTimes99 Sep 2013 #31
bonniebgood Sep 2013 #8
Coyotl Sep 2013 #22
Norrin Radd Sep 2013 #11
cantbeserious Sep 2013 #12
drynberg Sep 2013 #13
littlewolf Sep 2013 #14
Sunlei Sep 2013 #15
forestpath Sep 2013 #16
Dustlawyer Sep 2013 #18
nashville_brook Sep 2013 #27
Dustlawyer Sep 2013 #29
RoccoR5955 Sep 2013 #19
Scuba Sep 2013 #20
zbdent Sep 2013 #23
HardTimes99 Sep 2013 #32
Towlie Sep 2013 #24
TNNurse Sep 2013 #25
idwiyo Sep 2013 #26
Half-Century Man Sep 2013 #28
whistler162 Sep 2013 #35
freshwest Sep 2013 #52
alsame Sep 2013 #36
ProSense Sep 2013 #37
Dragonfli Sep 2013 #38
libodem Sep 2013 #39
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #40
pacalo Sep 2013 #41
grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #43
Swede Atlanta Sep 2013 #44
JaneyVee Sep 2013 #51
LibDemAlways Sep 2013 #57
DeSwiss Sep 2013 #60
Donald Ian Rankin Sep 2013 #62
99th_Monkey Sep 2013 #63
tblue Sep 2013 #64
B Calm Sep 2013 #65
avebury Sep 2013 #66
treestar Sep 2013 #67
freshwest Sep 2013 #73
Zorra Sep 2013 #71

Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:22 AM

1. Obama begs to differ on the judge, jury, and executioner part, Mr. Grayson nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:55 AM

9. Obama?

That's American foreign policy for over 60 years.

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Response to malaise (Reply #9)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 07:30 PM

42. And currently President Obama's.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #42)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:37 PM

48. It's almost as if the hots to launch war on Syria were as smoldering as Bushco's hots to

inflict junior's brand of shock and awe on Iraq. Almost.

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Response to malaise (Reply #9)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:24 PM

45. And of COURSE we can't change that....

Oh wait. We can claim "It's the 21st Century now and we can change things."

Naw, the Washington Villagers will never go for that.

Want proof?

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3036697/ns/msnbc-hardball_with_chris_matthews/vp/52888896#52888896

See? If we let Syria use chemical weapons then Iran will go nuclear and we can't have THAT,....right?

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #45)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:26 PM

46. We all hoped for change

Didn't we.

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Response to malaise (Reply #46)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:35 PM

47. We got it. They would have done "a proportional response" and we would hear about it after....

This is the first time I have EVER seen a President go to the Congress for a limited strike.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #47)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:58 PM

49. True

but I want no

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Response to malaise (Reply #49)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 11:18 PM

50. I want a true humanitarian response....

Domestically as well.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #50)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 11:56 PM

53. What exactly does a humanitarian response look like ....

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Response to MindMover (Reply #53)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:44 AM

54. It sure doesn't require weapons....

The "American Way" would have corporate logos involved.

Cookie?

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #54)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 01:06 AM

56. Ah, if the world was only still flat ....

We could ride our horses into war and kill a few heathens ....

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Response to MindMover (Reply #56)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:36 AM

58. I'd rather protect the helpless. I could then say it was a noble cause.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #58)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:39 AM

59. So how would you go about protecting the helpless in Syria .... ?

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Response to MindMover (Reply #59)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:56 AM

61. Two words: Cease Fire.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #61)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:01 PM

68. What world are you living in ... ???

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Response to MindMover (Reply #68)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:05 PM

69. One where those words are remembered.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #69)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:14 PM

70. When those words mean nothing to one side or the other ...

then they are just words ... in other words, it is a nice thought, but not realistic ...

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Response to MindMover (Reply #70)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:39 PM

72. That's because there are multiple sides and they aren't talking to each other....

American media want's to present it as a two sided conflict. Assad and al-Qaeda as if the Syrian youth who originally rose up as part of the Arab Spring had NOTHING to do with it and even if they did, they've been dealt out of what happens next because life in the Middle East is supposed to be all about religion and living in primitive conditions in misery.

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Response to malaise (Reply #49)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:46 AM

55. What do you think the world is anyway,....free to do what it wants?

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:23 AM

2. Congressman Grayson is correct (as usual).

But he's an exceptionally smart guy. Maybe he can think up an alternative. Something as counter-intuitive as the Marshall Plan for instance.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #2)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:35 AM

17. +1

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:24 AM

3. K&R

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:25 AM

4. A voice of sanity

I hope there are a lot more.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:29 AM

5. Are we vigilantes?

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #5)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:00 AM

21. No, we are Imperialists without a King.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:47 AM

30. Technical note: Imperialism does not require a monarch. See the Great Powers, ca.

 

1913. Sure, Germany and Britain each had a titular monarch (in Germany's case, the Kaiser). But each country's imperial policies were ratified by its respective parliamentary structures time and again.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #30)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:55 AM

33. D'oh!

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #33)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:58 AM

34. Sorry, didn't mean to belabor the obvious. Just didn't want people to confuse

 

necessarily imperialism with monarchism.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:35 AM

6. Well we should Zimmerman the Syrians shouldn't we?

We're the neighborhood watch for the world and we should be pulling our gun on the Syrian guys in hoodies.

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Response to dballance (Reply #6)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:56 AM

10. Irony is thick in this one...

 

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:40 AM

7. Once Again our MSM is shown to be a total tool

Apparently that talking head should be called Alex Witt-less. Grayson properly takes her to task for her snarky remarks and dresses her down when she mis-quotes him. We need about 500 more congress people like Grayson.

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Response to dballance (Reply #7)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:48 AM

31. +Infinity! - nt

 

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:47 AM

8. I would call that a smack down. The only thing I can see is President has finally

found a way for the teabag congress (after 7 years of NO) to say YES to something he proposes.

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Response to bonniebgood (Reply #8)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:01 AM

22. They are just going to say NO.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 07:07 AM

11. kr

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 07:16 AM

12. That Was A Smackdown

eom

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 07:41 AM

13. Exactly correct, Mr. Grayson

However, I also believe another pair of compelling pieces of information are that bombing Syria would be illegal and could well lead to a much wider war with Russia and Iran, not to mention our little "friend", Isreal. What could go wrong? ... Plenty.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 07:45 AM

14. K & R x 1000 nt

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:12 AM

15. Mr. Grayson is a voice of reason, please call to set-up the International Court

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:26 AM

16. K&R

 

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:37 AM

18. Alex Nit Witt kept asking the same question as if she expected a different response!

Why no go in depth about why he feels that way? He made his point but she failed to follow up!
Kudos to Grayson! I love his blunt, well thought out positions! He is not in Washington for the $, or power for its own sake.
There are atrocities that occur daily in other parts of the world. We never hear of them. Because its the Middle East we have to go kill a bunch of people, move in, and piss off the rest! Can you say "Oil?"

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #18)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:39 AM

27. she was not prepared for a Congressman with integrity.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #27)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:44 AM

29. You got that right! You would think they would know him by now!

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:41 AM

19. Congressman Gibson is absolutely correct! n/t

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 08:44 AM

20. K&R for the sane reasoning of Congressman Alan Grayson. Thank you Congressman!

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:01 AM

23. ah, yes ... another RW example of the liberals being in "lockstep" with Der Fuhrer Obama ...

Can anybody show an example of Rand Paul appearing in the "mainstream media" opposing Bush's occupation of Iraq prior to 2009?

(Since the RWers claim that MSNBC is "mainstream" even while they claim that nobody watches it and you have to pay extra to get it on your cable system, unlike Faux, which they force you to pay for ...)

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Response to zbdent (Reply #23)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:52 AM

32. I hold no brief for the racist Paul father and son clan. But Ron Paul did speak out publicly and

 

often against Operation Shocking and Awful, thereby demonstrating the truth of the aphorism that even a broken clock is right twice a day. I barely knew who Rand Paul was before the 2010 mid-terms.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:08 AM

24. Even if we needed a World Police, Judge, Jury, & Executioner, it sure as hell shouldn't be the USA!

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:09 AM

25. Alan Grayson

would be the only reason to live in Florida. How the hell he got elected there in comparison to their other elected officials is a mystery. Hopefully, the voters there will not pay attention and keep him in the US Congress where he belongs.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:26 AM

26. K&R Mr Grayson, as usual, is right. BTW, Mr Obama, any comments on Napalm-B and White Phosphorus?

Any thoughts about using depleted uranium ammunition? How about you tell us again how great drone strikes are instead! I am sure family members of "collateral damage" would love to hear your thoughts on all of those subjects.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:44 AM

28. If we could just see...

The United States
Central North America
Western Hemisphere, Earth

We did find your proposal intriguing and your resume interesting. And we agree you would be a splendid candidate for the job. However at this time, we are not seeking or accepting applications for Global Policeman/Swat Team/Adjudicator/on site Corrections Officer. The position, if/when it becomes available, will be placed in the local newspapers. So, chin up and keep your eyes open.

Your Fellow Passengers on the Planet
The Rest of Us.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:58 AM

35. Ahhh.. Alan, don't like history so will ignore it, Grayson

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Response to whistler162 (Reply #35)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 11:53 PM

52. Hi whistler! I think things are going as they should, Alan can speak at length in the HoR. He didn't

deny he'd changed his mind about their being any victims, no false flag BS from him like some of what we've heard from other media. you know, the ones who say no kids were killed in Newtown, etc.

The record is there from DWB, Syrian humanitarian groups, hospitals and there will be words for Turkey and Jordan, possibly. Alan may learn, if reports from the Guardian are correct, that Turkey does indeed claim to be under attack. Turkey has wanted Assad gone for years.

The 2012 article I posted sin a reply, said Turkey has complained that missiles from Syria during their civil war have overshot and landed on their soil, endangering their people. So it is not the older land invasion attack many envision, but they seem to find it intolerable. Just as Israel did with missiles coming from Gaza and there it goes, escalating, no matter who started what or what the initial grievance was.

AFAIK, the attacks have not risen to the level of an Article 5 action under the NATO charter, which mandates, exactly as Obama states in the clip, that we work together on this. One thing I learned reading up on NATO, which is bigger thing than most people realize, is that the different partners have assigned roles.

Turkey most likely does not have the weaponry the USA has, and they are calling on us to do the deed. If we don't 'just do it' the alliance collapses. What impact that would have, I don't know, It could lead to more bloodletting, economic collapses, or a major realignment of world powers, which Russia and China have been working on for years from what I've read, to isolate us and take over trade, etc. Whether the sources I've read or Russians I've talked to are correct, IDK. But they see themselves as the aggrieved party since WW2.

Obama is mainly going forward because of our treaty responsibilities as a member of NATO and Alan knows Turkey is a member. And it appears that 'tag you're it' has been our role for many years, like or not, and I don't like it. Isolationism has its costs, which may be what we're yearning for here. I always have, but the trade agreements have made that impossible. Since China has usually stepped in and some resources after the heavy fighting is over, I've entertained the rather outrageous notion that we go to war as part of our arrangement with them on the debt of the same.

That so many countries jumped up eagerly to finance Iraq by buying TBills or whatever constitutes a promissory note from the USA, and I don't believe that such sums are done out of love or sentiment, I feel that they had planned to get something worth more. We can't threaten to bomb a place and have them give us money. No, they expected something and they've gotten it; Some say we are carrying water for the Saudi royals. IDK, of course.

Alan appears to be honest about what he does and does not know. He will be meeting with the President this week to learn more. Both men are acting in good faith, line with their Constitutional duties that they are charged with by the American people.

Both are open minded and ready to hear other views, which is exactly what Obama has called for in this case. I feel this debate really needs to happen publicly and on the record in Congress. Not on the biased conservatively media outlets. American needs to continue on its change of path that has been embarked upon since 2009. It's going to be a wild ride, no matter what is decides. But we need to come to a decision. I think dis empowering the war machine is a good thing.

Do you feel when you mention 'history' that this is appeasement? That some forces or alliances are poised to do something very bad? Like a WW3 scenario? Because some see any action we take that close to the state of Israel as leading to that. You can bet the fundamentalists of all three of the Abrahanic religions have this in mind. For good or bad.

I like the idea of going to the Hague over the chemical attacks. But going to the Hague, IIRC, did not stop the ethnic cleansing in Serbia. I've heard from both sides on this. One have said it was all about the West hurting Russia and its allies, same as in Georgia. Some Russians think that we are always, always out to get them and that they have done nothing wrong.

There are some very nasty actors in the Middle East. I don't want to have anything to do with them. I think this a fallout from our previous energy policy and our being held hostage to tyrannical despots over there. But then, it may be just what Obama says it is when he speaks in terms of international law. There is more than one set of laws, and the Hague is something that happens when the hostilities have been ended. The Hague has no enforcement power AFAIK. They can't stop the slaughter. Sadly, that takes military actions when dealing with someone who will not negotiate with his own people, apparently.

This should have never happened, nor should there be a civil war. There is something going on behind the scenes, and we're not going to get the full picture, likely. Because people will get killed.

I'll send you a link in a PM to where I has posted on this, some articles and videos. Quite a lot of them. See you later.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 12:21 PM

36. K&R nt

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 12:39 PM

37. We're not, except when it comes to Iran

Sending Message to Iran, House Approves Tougher Sanctions

By RICK GLADSTONE

The House overwhelmingly approved legislation on Wednesday that would impose the toughest sanctions yet on Iran, calling the measure a critical step to cripple the countryís disputed nuclear program and brushing aside calls for restraint by critics who said the Iranian president-elect should first be given a chance to negotiate.

The 400-to-20 vote to approve the legislation, known as the Nuclear Iran Prevention Act, came four days before the inauguration of Iranís President-elect Hassan Rouhani, a moderate cleric who won on a tide of dissatisfaction with the conservative hard-liners who have been in power in Iran for the past eight years. Mr. Rouhani, a former nuclear negotiator, has said he will seek to ease tensions with the United States.

<...>

There had been little doubt that the bill, which now goes to the Senate for consideration in September after the Congressional summer recess, would be approved, given the widespread antipathy in Washington for Iranís government since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

But the timing of the vote had raised alarm among some lawmakers who contended it would be viewed in Iran as a blatantly hostile signal at a delicate time. Experts in Iranian politics said they feared the vote could embolden Iranís hard-liners and weaken Mr. Rouhaniís ability to ease the estrangement with the United States.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/01/us/politics/sending-message-to-iran-house-approves-tougher-sanctions.html

Roll call: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/roll427.xml

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr850/text

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 01:47 PM

38. Internationally we appear to think we are, Obama (and indeed most authoritarians) saw the movie

"Dredd" and mistakenly thought they were watching a documentary on international diplomacy - or in the case of Obama, a very well produced instructional video on our countries responsibilities and duties as undisputed judge with final authority over all countries within our jurisdiction (our jurisdiction being clearly defined as all that can be seen by spy satellite).

The concept of world courts, international consensus, or the belief that there are laws that our country is bound by are all very quant and nostalgic, much like our Constitution, but are in the end relics of the past.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 03:26 PM

39. Whoa

What a snarky, snotty, interviewer. Thought it was Faux. Wow. Stunning.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 04:12 PM

40. Oh, she was sooo disappointed in the congressman's answers, lol.

Alan Grayson's thinking was way outside the confines of the cardboard cubical. "This does not compute."

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 06:10 PM

41. K&R.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 07:56 PM

44. Grayson is, as always, CORRECT...

 

First of all he is "non-emotional"...the first sign of rational, careful deliberation.

Second he is right. Syria, while in the ME, is hardly in the U.S.' strategic interests. Control of that nation may complicate or ease our feelings but have virtually ZERO impact on our NATIONAL SECURITY.

I am tired to us being the world policeman. Yes there are horrible things happening everywhere. But we cannot respond, and should not respond, discriminately. Why did we not respond in Rwanda? Because there was no oil and they were black. Plain and simple.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 11:20 PM

51. Since when?

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 01:19 AM

57. The voice of common sense. Wish we could clone him. n/t

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:45 AM

60. Precisely, we are not the world's policemen, judge, nor jury.

- We are the world's executioner because that's our last industry. Well, that and Ponzi schemes. But given our track record, we're the last ones who should be policing, judging or jurying anyone.

{Psssst: It might help if we're going to hold people accountable, that we start at home first.}

K&R

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:04 AM

62. If not you then who else?

I'm afraid I think that Congressman Grayson is factually wrong in this case.

I hope that at some point in the future, other countries (or, better yet, international bodies) are in a position to do more to discourage atrocities and human rights abuses, but for now, it's pretty much America or no-one.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:34 AM

63. Grayson is to be commended for his astute leadership of late

On the NSA, and now on Syria.
THANK YOU ALAN!!

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:55 AM

64. But we sure act like it.

Good for you, Mr. Grayson!

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 05:50 AM

65. I usually agree with Grayson, but we have

been playing the role of world policeman since WW2. Be nice if we wouldn't play this role, but. . .

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 06:24 AM

66. The Western world seems to have forgotten that

they were able to get South Africa to end apartheid without using deadly force. It would have also helped out a lot if the UK hadn't sold Syria chemical weapons. It is unacceptable for the MIC, on the one hand, sell countries like Syria chemical weapons (and other heinous stuff) and then on the other hand encourage the Western countries to buy the weapons necessary to bomb the same countries that the MIC sold the chemical weapons to in the first place.

It seems like an appropriate action would be to go after the MIC companies that sold the chemical weapons to Syria. They are, after all, complicit in the crime. They can hardly claim that they did not know that Syria (or some faction within Syria) would use the weapons on civilians. Why isn't the International Criminal Courts going after the MIC companies that sold Syria the chemical weapons?

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 07:14 AM

67. Use of Chemical Weapons

He's for letting Assad get away with it.

That's the bottom line.

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Response to treestar (Reply #67)

Wed Sep 4, 2013, 12:59 AM

73. I think the human race is going to have to come clean on why we think we have to kill each other.

Grayson is equating the use of chemical weapons which are WMDs, with any other kind of killing.

Whether by the sword or the machete, gun fire, gas, bombing, working people to death or by starvation, it ends up the same.

The particular offense of using WMD that kill so many so fast, is always seen as an escalation. Slower killing garners less interest, and some people seem to accept it.

I posted on the millions of deaths in WW2. In taking one island in the Pacific. Yeah, it can happen again.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:38 PM

71. The 1%/MIC disagrees. They believe that we are their personal private global police agency.

And since they control the government, whatever they want is law.

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